Governor, thanks for joining
us here tonight.
Thanks, Caitlin.
I don't think that we've gotten
your real reaction
to the audio
that CNN got this week of Trump
talking about classified documen
with people
who didn't have security clearan
What went through your mind
as you listened to that
two minute or so clip?
Sounds just like him.
I mean, the thing that struck me
the most was that
that is what Donald Trump is lik
most of the time,
constantly rationalizing
his own bad behavior, justifying
what he's doing at the very mome
that he's doing it,
even when he knows it's wrong
and showing off.
He's the consummate showoff.
And I think that's what
that tape was, him showing off.
People ask me going all the way
back to the time of the raid
last year of Mar a Lago.
Why would he keep these document
people like?
Is he going to give in
to a foreign government
or sell them to somebody or blac
People like you don't understand
Donald Trump.
It's just to show off.
He wants to continue
to act like he's president.
He can't
live with the fact that he's not
And so that's why
he kept those documents.
It seems childish and stupid and
But that's the reason
why in my view, he's always kept
You've compared it to a child
sticking their hand into a cooki
Yeah.
I mean, look, he knows it's wron
And he acknowledged that on the
on the tape that you all got,
you know, he says, like,
look, this is classified. It's s
You know,
I could have declassified
when I was president, but I didn
And now I can't
you know, I can't have this.
I can't show it to you.
Well,
you know,
he knows these things are wrong,
but he is like that child who te
the parent constantly,
you know,
and that is what is
just so maddening about this.
None of this had to happen
if he tries to play victim now.
Caitlyn Oh, poor me.
They're going after me.
They tried for 18 months, quietl
privately,
to get him to return the documen
from February of 20, 21
through to August of 20, 20 to
they wrote, they called,
they met with lawyers.
They ultimately served
a grand jury subpoena.
They did everything they could u
and not including a raid.
He would not give them the docum
back.
And in fact,
according to the indictment
now and I have no reason to beli
that's not true.
You know,
he even hid documents
from his own lawyers
when they were trying to comply
with the subpoena in order to ke
And this isn't new,
Caitlin, the boxes thing.
You know, when I was
when I was with him in 2016
his bodyguard
at the time, he Schiller
used to carry a banker's box of
that came from Trump Tower
and we would get on Trump's plan
And the first thing that would h
when he sat down
is Keith would go and get that b
and put it in the seat next to T
And Trump would open the box
and he would start going
through the papers
where they call him,
you know, his Beautiful Mind box
The staff called them.
I knew exactly what they meant.
It was like a security blanket f
That you're saying it wasn't som
where, oh,
he just had all the stuff with h
and he didn't really know
what was in there.
It was just random boxes.
You're saying he
he knew and kept track of these,
but he knew exactly what it was
and he would talk to you
as he was going through papers i
I said, Oh, this is about this d
or This is a story about this.
Or it would be a combination of,
you know, paperwork and articles
and magazines.
As he said,
that's the kind of stuff
that was in there,
except once you become president
you have access to classified do
and top secret documents
and CIA documents,
which are the most secret docume
And that's what's often
keep with him at the White House
Did you ever see him
dealing with classified informat
in front of people
who didn't have security clearan
or anything that you remember?
I didn't.
I didn't the only
the only thing that he ever show
which I think he showed to lots
people, were the letters
that he got from Kim Jong un.
He was very proud of those. Yeah
But of course, what he's
alleged to have taken out
is so much more serious,
much more serious
Social Security secrets.
He's had a litany of excuses
for why he had these documents.
This is just a culmination
of some of them.
You can
declassify just by saying
it's declassified,
even by thinking about it.
I didn't have a document per se.
Did you ever show
those classified documents to an
Not really.
Copies of different plans,
copies of stories
having to do with many, many sub
Why do you think his excuses
keep changing
for why he had these documents?
Because he's getting cornered.
He's getting quarter
to he'll lie about anything.
I think the latest lie
is the one that he said
just yesterday.
Right where he said I was really
I think it was just bravado.
So he was essentially saying
he was lying to the people
he was sitting with.
Mark Meadows, biographers
and his own staff
but let me tell you something.
That's what he does when he is c
And he was cornered
by the Britt Baker interview.
The Britt Baker interview
put him in a horrible box
I don't think he's ever
going to be able to go.
He said it wasn't a document per
Well, that
but he also the bigger problem
he has, Kaitlan, is that he admi
he had the documents.
He knew about the grand jury sub
but he was too busy
to go through the boxes
to see what was classified
and what wasn't.
And he didn't
want to just turn the boxes over
because he had golf shirts
and golf pants in there.
I mean, come on.
There's nobody in America
who believes that story.
Does the bravado
excuse remind you
of when the Access
Hollywood tape came out?
And he his
dismissal was
it's just locker room talk it's
whenever he feels cornered,
he makes up a story.
Reminds me
more particularly
of when he didn't
want to turn over his tax return
and he all of a sudden
came up with a story
that he was getting legal advice
saying that
as long as he was under audit,
that he couldn't turn them over.
And that was a completely made u
as well.
You're a former federal prosecut
How damaging is a tape like that
at trial?
Well, it's
always great to have evidence, e
audio or videotape
of the person in their own words
saying something
as opposed to a witness
saying that someone said this.
The tape is always
the best having you,
whether it's audio or audio and
because the jury then knows
they don't have to rely upon any
for the truth
of what's being said in there.
They can see it and hear it
for themselves.
So the tape is an incredibly imp
part of it.
But it's not the only important
piece of evidence that they have
I suspect that they will introdu
at the time at trial
most Caitlin, most of these indi
when I did it for seven years,
we usually put a third to a half
of the amount of evidence
that we actually had in the indi
and saved stuff for later.
So you think there's more?
I do.
Rudy Giuliani was interviewed
in last week,
I believe, by Jack Smith's inves
who are investigating
January six and the efforts
to overturn the election.
What does it say to you
that he voluntarily
sat down with them
with Jackson and Steve?
Does that mean,
do you think, that
he's trying
to get some kind of agreement?
I think that's Rudy's personalit
Remember, Rudy was a U.S.
attorney also, and he was the U.
attorney in the most important d
in the country, in Manhattan,
in the southern district of New
So I don't think
even if Rudy got legal advice
not to sit down.
My guess is knowing Rudy,
that he feels like he could deal
with whatever questions
are going to be asked.
And that's given his background,
his experience.
And I'm sure he's convinced
he did nothing wrong.
So I think with Rudy, it's
not an indication
that there's a deal being made,
which it might be with other peo
I think it's more
that Rudy has
this incredible self-confidence
that he could sit down with a pr
and he will not
be, you know, knocked off.
How much risk do you think
he's facing in this investigatio
And Trump himself
on the January six side of thing
Look, it's
hard to tell everything
that went on that day.
I actually tried to talk
to the president that day
and he wouldn't take the calls
to urge him to speak out
and to get people out of the Cap
So I don't know what
everybody's role was.
But look, this what we know for
It was an awful day in American
We know that Donald Trump played
a large role in encouraging it,
not just on the day, but in ever
he did from election night
forward to January 6th,
because he continued to spread t
that the election was stolen
And we know that's not true
and there's no evidence to suppo
It is. He knew that, too.
But his ego wouldn't permit him
that he lost to Joe Biden and be
If I lost the Joe Biden, I'd be
pretty hurt, too.
But the fact is,
when it happens, it happens.
And I don't think that
Jack Smith would be my guess.
It's not just
looking at the speech on January
or what happened on January six.
He's looking at everything that
from election night forward.
Yeah, fundraising.
We know all the fake electors.
Do you have concerns
on how Trump would use his pardo
if he became president again?
Well, I don't like a lot of the
he used it when he had it the fi
Yeah.
Because he pardoned Charles Kush
Sure.
So and then for other people,
I don't think he should have
pardoned, but nonetheless.
Sure.
That would not be my top concern
if he were to become president.
Again, but it would be on a list
You haven't said
whether or not you'd rule out
pardoning him if you became pres
I think I don't think it's respo
to say it violent. But what?
Because
having had the pardon power befo
I will tell you what my inclinat
I don't think if he gets a fair
that there's going to be any gro
to pardon him.
And so my inclination is
I don't think I would pardon him
if I thought that he got an unfa
if I thought
there were things that happened
that led to an unfair result.
And that's a different story.
But based on what I know
today, the answer is no.
But having had the pardon power
as a governor,
and how seriously I took it.
What I'm telling you is
that you got to watch to see
how the trial goes to
because that's part of it.
The last thing I'd say and the r
why I don't think
if I'm president
that I'll ever confront
this is to get a pardon.
You must also accept responsibil
for your conduct.
Donald Trump
will never accept responsibility
for his conduct.
And so he won't even be able to
a pardon if one were offered.
Of course,
one thing you know,
we're talking about the primary,
the pull that he has on your par
that was on full display this we
when House
Speaker Kevin McCarthy
did an interview
where he questioned Trump's stre
as a candidate, saying,
is he the best candidate?
I'm not so sure.
He quickly backtracked on that.
What does that say to you
about how dependent
Kevin McCarthy is on a Donald Tr
Well,
I think that Kevin's in
a particularly difficult positio
because he needs to count the 21
every day.
Every day,
given the rules
that he's operating under.
So it's not an excuse for Kevin,
but it's an explanation
as to what he's up to.
He's trying to get things done
in the house of Representatives.
He's managing a very difficult c
and a very slim majority.
And so I think that's why he mor
My guess
is that's why he did what he did
But I think his first statement
is what he really believes,
which is that
he doesn't think Donald Trump
is the strongest candidate to
be president.