>> Narrator: TheCUBE presents UIPath Forward5.
Brought to you by UIPath.
>> Hi everybody. We're back in Las Vegas, TheCUBE's coverage.
We're day one at UI Path Forward5.
Pascal Bornet is here.
He's an expert and bestselling author
in the topic of AI and automation,
and the book "Intelligent Automation:
Welcome to the World of Hyper Automation,"
the first book on the topic.
And of course, Ray Wong is back on theCUBE.
He's the founder, chairman, and principle analyst
of Constellation Research,
also best-selling author of
"Everybody Wants To Rule the World."
Guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE.
Always a pleasure.
Ray, Pascal, first time on theCUBE, I believe.
>> Yes, thank you.
Thanks for the invitation. >> Thank you.
>> So what is artificial about artificial intelligence?
>> (chuckles) For sure, not people.
(group laughs)
>> So, okay, so you guys are both speaking
at the conference, Ray, today.
I think you're interviewing the co CEOs.
What do you make of that?
What are you going to probe with these guys?
Like, how they're going to divide and conquer?
And why do you think the company,
Danielle in particular, decided to bring in Rob Enslin?
>> Well, you know what, I mean, like, you know,
these companies are now
at a different stage of growth, right?
There's that early battle between RPA vendors.
Now we're actually talking something different, right?
We're talking about, where does automation go?
How do we get the decisioning?
What's the next best action?
That's going to be the next step.
And to take where UI path is today to somewhere else,
you really want someone with
that enterprise credit and experience,
the sales motions, the packages,
the partnership capabilities,
and who else better than Rob Enslin?
Like he's done, he can do that in his sleep.
But now he's got to do that in a new space,
take a whole category to another level.
Now, Daniel, on the other hand, right,
I mean, he's the visionary founder.
He put this thing from nothing to where he is today, right?
I mean, at that point, you want your founder
thinking about the next set of ideas, right?
So you get this interesting dynamic
that we've seen for a while with co CEOs,
those that are doing the operations,
getting the stuff out the door,
and then letting the founders get a chance to
go back and rethink, take a look at the perspective,
and hopefully get a chance to build the next idea.
Or take the next idea back into the organization.
>> Very well said.
Pascal, why did you write your book
on intelligent automation and hyper automation,
and what's changed since you've written that book?
>> So, I wrote this book, "Intelligent Automation",
two years ago.
At that time, it was really a new topic.
It was really about the key,
the key content of the book is really about
combining different technologies to automate
the most complex end-to-end business processes in companies.
And when I say capabilities,
we hear a lot about RPA, especially here,
robotic process automation.
But RPA alone, if you're just trying
to transform a company with only RPA,
you just full short. Okay?
A lot of those processes need more than execution.
They need language, they need the capacity to view, to see.
They need the capacity to understand and to create insights.
So by combining robotic process automation with AI,
natural language processing, computer vision,
you give this capability to create impact
by automating end-to-end processes in companies.
>> I like to test what I hear in the keynote
with independent experts like yourself.
So we're hearing that intelligent automation,
or automation, is a fundamental component
of digital transformation.
Is it?
Or is it more, sort of, a back office, sort of,
hidden inside plumbing?
Ray, what do you think?
>> Well, you start by understanding
what's going on in the process fees.
And that's where you see Discover become very important,
in that keynote, right?
And that's where process mining's playing a role.
Then you got to automate stuff.
But when you get to operations,
that's really where the change is going to happen, right?
We actually think that, you know,
when you're doing the digital transformation pieces, right?
Analytics, automation and AI are coming together
to create a concept we call decision velocity.
You and I make a quick decision, boom.
How long does it take to get out of management committee?
Could be forever, right?
A week, two months, never.
But if you're thinking about competing with the automation,
these decisions are actually being done
100 times per second by machine,
even 1000 times per second.
That asymmetry is really what people are facing,
at the moment.
And the companies that are going to be able to do that,
and start automating decisions,
are going to be operating at another level.
Back to what Pascal's book was talking about, right?
And there are four questions everyone has to ask you.
Like, when do you fully intelligently automate?
And that happens, right, in the background.
When do you augment the machine with a human?
So we can find, why did you make an exception?
Why did you break a rule?
Why didn't you follow this protocol?
So we can get it down to a higher level of confidence.
When do you augment the human with the machine,
so we can give you the information so you can act quickly.
And the last one is,
when do you want to insert a human in the process?
That's going to be the biggest question.
Order to cash, incident resolution
hire to retire, procure to pay.
It doesn't matter.
When do you want to put a human in the process?
When do you want a man in the middle?
Person in the middle?
And more importantly, when do you want insert friction?
>> So Pascal, you wrote your book
in the middle of the pandemic.
And so, you know, pre-pandemic,
"digital transformation" was kind of a buzzword.
A lot of people gave it lip service.
Eh, not on my watch.
I don't have to worry about that.
But then it became, sort of,
you're not a digital business, you're out of business.
So, what have you seen as the catalyst
for adoption of automation?
Was it the pandemic?
Was it sort of good runway before that?
What's changed?
You know, pre isolation, post isolation economy.
>> You make me think about a joke.
Who did your best digital transformation
over the last years?
The CEO, CHRO, the Covid?
Covid. (group laughs)
>> Dave: It's a big wrecking ball.
>> And that's exactly true, you know?
Before pandemic,
digital transformation was a competitive advantage.
Companies that went into it had an opportunity
to get a bit better than their competitors.
During the pandemic, things have changed completely.
Companies that were not digitalized and automated
could not survive.
And we've seen so many companies just burning out.
And those companies that have been able to capitalize
on intelligent automation, digital transformations,
during the pandemic,
have been able not only to survive, but to thrive,
to really create their place on the market.
So that has been a catalyst,
definitely a catalyst for that.
That explains the success of the book, basically.
>> So you're familiar with the concept of stew,
the food, right?
>> Yes.
>> So stew, by definition, is something
that's delicious to eat.
Stew isn't simply taking
one of every ingredient from the pantry,
and throwing it in the pot, and stirring it around.
When we start talking about intelligent automation,
artificial intelligence, augmented intelligence,
it starts getting a bit overwhelming.
My spidey sense goes off and I start thinking,
"This sounds like mush. It doesn't sound like stew."
So I want to hear from each of you,
what is the methodical process
that people need to go through
when they're going through digital transformation
so that you get delicious stew,
instead of a mush that's just confused
everything in your business?
So Ray, you want to answer that first?
>> Yeah. You know, I mean, we've been talking
about digital transformation since 2010, right?
And part of it was really getting the business model right.
What are you trying to achieve?
Is it a new type of offering?
Are you changing the way you monetize something?
Are you taking existing process
and applying it to a new set of technologies?
And what do you want to accomplish, right?
Once you start there,
then it becomes a whole lot of operational stuff.
And it's more than stew, right?
I mean, it could be like...
Well, I can't use those words there.
But the point being is,
it could be a complete, like, operational exercise.
It could be a complete revenue exercise,
it could be a regulatory exercise.
It could be something about where you want
to take growth into the next level.
And each one of those processes,
some of it is automation, right?
There's a big component of it today.
But most of it is really rethinking
about what you want things to do, right?
How do you actually make things to be successful, right?
Do I reorganize a process?
Do I insert a place to do monetization?
Where do I put engagement in place?
How do I collect data along the way
so I can build better feedback loop?
What can I do to build the business graph,
so that I have that knowledge for the future,
so I can go forward doing that,
so I can be successful?
>> Pascal, should the directive be "First, IA, then AI?"
Or are these things going to happen in parallel, naturally?
What's your position on that?
Is it automate first?
>> So AI is part of IA,
because it's part of the big umbrella.
And, very often, I get your question.
So how do you differentiate AI and IA?
I like to say that "AI is only the brain."
So think of AI.
'Cause I consider AI as machine learning, okay?
Think of AI in like a brain in jar
that only can think, create insight, learn,
but doesn't do anything.
Doesn't have any arms.
Doesn't have any eyes.
Doesn't not have any mouth and ears.
Can't talk, can't understand.
With IA, you give those capabilities to AI.
You, basically, you create the capability,
technological capability,
that is able to do more than just thinking,
learning, and creating insight.
But also acting, speaking, understanding the environment,
viewing it, interacting with it.
So basically, performing those end-to-end processes
that are performed currently by people in companies.
>> Yeah, we're going to get to a point where we get to,
what we call, a dynamic scenario generation.
You're talking to me, you get excited.
Well, I changed the story because something else shows up.
Or you're talking to me and you're really upset.
We're going to have to actually, you know,
address that issue right away.
Well, we want the ability to have
that sense and respond capability,
so that the next best action is served.
So your data, your process, the journey
all the analytics on the top end,
that's all going to be served up and changed along the way.
As we go from 2D journeys to 3D scenarios in the metaverse.
If we think about what happens
from a centralized world to decentralized.
And we think about what's happening
from web two to web three,
we're going to make those types of shifts
so that things are moving along.
Everything's a choose your own adventure journey.
>> So I hope I remember this correctly, from your book.
You talked about disruption scenarios
within industries and within companies.
And I go back to the early days of our industry,
and East Coast, Prime, Wang, DG, they're all gone.
And then, but you look at companies like Microsoft.
You know, they were able to, you know,
get through that novel.
IBM, you know, I call it, survived.
Intel is now going through their, you know, their challenge.
So, maybe it's inevitable.
But how do you see the future,
in terms of disruption within industry.
Forget our industry for a second, all industry,
across, whether it's healthcare,
financial services, manufacturing, automobiles, et cetera.
How do you see the disruption scenario?
I'm pretty sure you talked about this in your book,
it's been a while since I read it.
But I wonder if you could talk about
that disruption scenario and the role that automation
is going to play, either as the disruptor,
or as the protector of the incumbents?
>> Let's take healthcare and auto as an example.
Healthcare is a great example.
If we think about what's going on,
not enough nurses, massive shortage, right?
What are we doing at the moment?
We're sending 5'9" robots to do non-patient care.
We're trying to capture enough information off,
you know, patient analytics.
Like, this watch is going to capture vitals
from A, going forward.
We're doing a lot,
what we can do in the ambient level,
so that information and data is automatically captured,
and decisions are being rendered against that.
Maybe you're going to change your diet along the way.
Maybe you're going to walk an extra 10 minutes.
All those things are going to be provided
in that level of automation.
Take the car business.
It's not about selling cars.
Tesla's a great example.
We talk about this all the time.
What Tesla's doing, they're basically going to be
an insurance company with all the data they have.
They have better data than the insurance companies.
They can do better underwriting.
They've got better mapping information and insights.
They can actually suggest next best action,
do collision avoidance, right?
Those are all the things that are actually happening today.
And automation plays a big role,
not just in the collection of that information insight,
but also in the ability to make recommendations,
to do predictions,
and to help you prevent things from going wrong.
>> So, you know, it's interesting.
It's like you talk about Tesla as the,
disrupting the insurance companies.
It's almost like the over-the-top vendors
have all the data relative to the telcos,
and mopped them up for lunch.
Pascal, I want to ask you, you know,
the topic of future of work kind of was a bromide before.
But now I feel like, you know, post pandemic,
it actually has substance.
How do you see the future of work?
Can you even summarize what it's going to look like?
Or are we here?
>> Yeah, it's, definitely.
It's a more and more important topic currently.
And you all heard about the great resignation,
and how employee experience
is more and more important for companies.
According to Harvard Business Review,
the companies that take care of their employee experience
are four times more profitable that those that don't.
So it's an issue for CEOs and shareholders.
Now, how do we get there?
How do we improve the quality of the employee experience?
Understanding the people,
getting information from them, educating them.
I'm talking about educating them on those new technologies,
and how they can benefit from those.
Empowering them.
And I think we've talked a lot about this,
about the democratization, local type of technologies
that democratize the access to those technologies.
Everyone can be empowered today to change their work,
improve their work.
And finally, incentivization.
I think it's a very important point where companies...
>> Thank you, there.
What's going to be the key message of your talk tomorrow?
Give us the bumper sticker, if you will.
>> Oh, I'm going to talk...
It's a little bit different.
I'm going to talk for the IT community
in the context of the IT summit.
And I'm going to talk about
the future of intelligent automation.
So basically, how new technologies
will impact beyond what we see today.
The future of work.
>> Well always love having you on theCUBE.
So articulate and crisp.
What's exciting you these days, you know, in your world?
I know you're traveling around a lot, but what's hot?
>> Yeah, I think one of the coolest things
that's going on right now is the fact that
we're trying to figure out,
do we go to work or do we not go to work?
Back to your other point.
I mean, I don't know where work is.
I mean, for me, work has been everywhere, right?
And we're starting to figure out what that means.
I think the second thing, though,
is this notion around mission and purpose.
And everyone's trying to figure out,
what does that mean for themselves?
And that's really, I don't know if it's a great resignation.
We call it a great refactoring, right?
Where you work, when you work,
how we work, why you work, that's changing.
But more importantly, the business models are changing.
The monetization models are changing.
There are macro dynamics that are happening.
US versus China, G7 versus brics, right?
War on the dollar.
All these things are happening around us at this moment,
and I think it's going to really reshape us
the way that we came out of the '70s into the '80s.
>> Guys, always a pleasure having folks like yourself on.
Thank you, Pascal.
Been great to see you again.
All right.
Dave Nicholson.
Dave Vellante.
Keep it right there.
Forward5 from Las Vegas.
You're watching theCUBE.
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