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♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.
WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."
LET'S CHECK IN WITH OUR FRIEND MR. JON BATISTE.
HEY, JON.
>> Jon: HEY, TEACH, HOW YOU DOING?
>> Stephen: I SPENT THE ENTIRE WEEKEND THINKING ABOUT RUTH
BADER GINSBURG, NOT JUST THE PARTISAN POLITICAL FIGHT THAT'S
GOING TO COME UP OVER WHETHER SHE'S REPLACED, BUT ABOUT THE
LOSS OF A GIANT LIKE THAT, SOMEONE WHO FOUGHT SO HARD FOR
EQUALITY FOR ALL PEOPLE.
>> Jon: SHE WAS REALLY AN UNBELIEVABLE FORCE.
THE LIFE THAT SHE LED IS SUCH A GREAT EXAMPLE FOR WHAT'S
POSSIBLE WITHIN HUMANITY AND WHAT WE'RE CAPABLE OF, AND SHE'S
PASSING US THE BATON AND NOW MORE THAN EVER HER LIFE'S WORK
IS IMPORTANT.
>> Stephen: SHE AND JOHN LEWIS THIS YEAR HAVE BEEN TWO
EXTRAORDINARILY AFFECTING DEATHS.
>> Jon: ABSOLUTELY.
>> Stephen: YOU KNOW, AND JUST LIKE JOHN LEWIS, KNOWING THAT
THERE WAS SOMEBODY OUT THERE OF HER STATURE AND OF HER INTELLECT
AND MORAL COURAGE, AGAIN, TAKES THE PRESSURE OFF OF YOU A LITTLE
BIT TO NOT HAVE TO STAND UP AND DO THE RIGHT THING.
BUT ONCE AGAIN, WHEN A GIANT LIKE THAT PASSES, EVERYBODY
KNOWS THAT IT'S UP TO THEM TO BUILD THE WORLD THAT THEY WANT.
>> Jon: ABSOLUTELY.
IT'S SUCH A VOID THAT WE HAVE NO CHOICE.
AT OUR OWN PERIL, WE HAVE TO STEP UP, OR EVERYTHING IS LOST.
SO I HAVE BEEN SADDENED, BUT I'M STILL GOING TO BELIEVE IN US.
I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT WE CAN FOLLOW THAT EXAMPLET THAT THEY
SET FOR US.
>> Stephen: THANK YOU, JON.
JOINING ME NOW IS AN AUTHOR, MILITARY HISTORIAN, AND
RETIRED THREE STAR GENERAL WHO SERVED AS NATIONAL SECURITY
ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.
HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED "BATTLEGROUNDS."
PLEASE WELCOME, LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. MCMASTER!
GENERAL MCMASTER, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> STEPHEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.
GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> Stephen: THE U.S. HAS GOT A LOT OF ITS PLATE RIGHT NOW.
I THINK THAT IS PUTTING IT LIGHTLY.
UM, BUT YOUR BOOK LOOKS AT THE INTERNATIONAL CHALLENGES THE
U.S. HAS.
WHAT IS THE GREATEST INTERNATIONAL CHALLENGE THE U.S.
IS FACING RIGHT NOW THAT WE'RE NOT HEARING ABOUT?
>> WELL, STEPHEN, I THINK IT'S A BROAD CHALLENGE OF REALLY US NOT
PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD.
COVID 19 HASN'T SUSPENDED ANY OF THE COMPETITIONS THAT I WRITE
ABOUT IN THE BOOK, IT HAS IN MANY WAYS CATALYZED THEM AND
ACCELERATED THEM.
SO I THINK WE'RE TAKING OUR EYE OFF THE BALL.
OF COURSE, WE HAVE THIS TRIPLE CRISIS NOW OF COVID 19, THE
RECESSION ASSOCIATED WITH IT AND THE DEEP DIVISIONS IN OUR
SOCIETY LAID BEAR BY THE HORRIBLE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD
AND THE CIVIL STRIFE THAT FOLLOWED, CONCERNS OVER
INEQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY IN OUR COUNTRY.
SO I THINK IT'S REALLY A TOUGH TIME FOR US, BUT THESE
CHALLENGES AREN'T GOING AWAY.
SO THE ARGUMENT IN THE BOOK IS FOR US TO BE INTROSPECTIVE BUT
ALSO TO REMAIN ENGAGED IN THE WORLD, TO TRY TOWNS THESE
CHALLENGES AND WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND OUR
WAIF LIFE AND TO BUILD A BETTER FUTURE FOR GENERATIONS TO COME.
>> Stephen: NOW, BOTH CAMPAIGNS, BOTH BIDEN AND TRUMP
ARE SORT OF BEING TOUGH ON CHINA.
HOW HAS OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA CHANGED BECAUSE OF THE
CORONAVIRUS?
>> WELL, STEPHEN, I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE
CORONAVIRUS IS CHINA THINKS IT'S WINNING, OR CHINA THINKS IT'S A
COMBINATION OF WINNING AND A BELIEF THAT THIS FLEETING WINDOW
OF OPPORTUNITY THAT THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY BELIEVED IT HAD,
WHAT I WRITE ABOUT IN THE BOOK, IS CLOSING MAYBE MORE RAPIDLY
FOR THEM.
AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE COVID 19 CRISIS IS AN
INTENSIFICATION OF AGGRESSION BY THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY.
WE SEE IT FROM THE SO-CALLED WOLF WARRIOR DIPLOMACY AIMED
MAINLY AT EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES.
YOU SEE IT AS PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY SOLDIERS ARE
ATTACKING INDIAN SOLDIERS AND BLUDGEONING THEM TO DEATH ON THE
HIMALAYAN FRONTIER.
YOU SEE IT WITH THE REPRESSION OF FREEDOM IN HONG KONG, MAYBE
THE GREATEST LAND GRAB IN HISTORY IF THEY CAN GET AWAY
WITH IT IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, THE THREATS TOWARDS TAIWAN, AND
THAT'S TO SAY NOTHING OF THE ACCELERATION OF THIS CULTURAL
GENOCIDE IN CHINA.
THE NATURE TO HAVE THE CHINESE PARTY AND THE THREAT THEY POSETO
NO JUST THE UNITED STATES BUT TO FREE AND OPEN SOCIETIES.
>> Stephen: TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE HOW ARE THE
CHINESE RESPONDING TO THE COVID.
IS THEIR ECONOMY RECOVERING BETTER THAN OURS?
>> YOU CAN'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THAT COMES OUT OF CHINA.
IN CONNECTION WITH THE COVID 19 CRISIS, THEY FOISTED IT ON THE
WORLD BY REPRESSION OF HUMAN-TO-HUMAN TRANSMISSION, BY
SHUTTING DOWN DOMESTIC TRAVEL BEFORE INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL, BY
PUNISHING THE DOCTORS THAT WERE TRYING TO EXPOSE THE CRISIS,
AND, SO, ECONOMIC DATA IS ALSO SKETCHY COMING OUT OF CHINA.
BUT THEY ARE THE FIRST TO BE COMING OUT OF IT AND I THINK
IT'S VERY POSSIBLE XI JINPING IS KIND OF IN AN ECHO CHAMBER.
IF YOU'RE A DICTATOR AND YOU PUT PEOPLE AROUND YOU WHO TELL YOU
HOW GREAT YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, AND I THINK
THEY'RE TELLING HIM, HEY, YOU'RE ON TOP YOU'RE DOING GREAT, AND I
THINK THIS IS MAYBE A SOURCE OF THEIR INCREASINGLY AGGRESSIVE
BEHAVIOR.
>> Stephen: THAT SOUNDS LIKE A TERRIBLE FORM OF GOVERNMENT TO
HAVE ONE GUY WHO SAYS HE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS THE ANSWERS AND
ONLY SURROUNDS HIMSELF WITH PEOPLE WHO SAY EXACTLY WHAT HE
WANTS TO HEAR.
CAN YOU IMAGINE WANT AGO GOVERNMENT LIKE THAT?
>> WE FOUGHT A REVOLUTION BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO LIVE
UNDER A MONARCHY.
I THINK WE SHOULD STILL CELEBRATE WE ARE NOT A MONARCHY.
>> Stephen: WE SHOULD, BUT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO THINK
THAT WOULDN'T BE SUCH A BAD IDEA BASED ON THEIR BEHAVIOR IN
WASHINGTON, D.C. RIGHT NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE, GENERAL?
>> WELL, I THINK WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL FOR WHAT OUR FOUNDERS
SET UP, THEY WERE PRETTY BRILLIANT ABOUT THIS.
AS WE'RE AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS IN THE MIDST OF A PRESIDENTIAL
CAMPAIGN, I THINK IT'S WORTH GOING BACK TO SOME OF THOSE
FOUNDING DOCUMENTS.
I MEAN, FEDERALIST TEN, FOR EXAMPLE, AND WHAT ALEXANDER
HAMILTON AND JAMES MADISON WROTE ABOUT, THEY FEARED FACTIONS AND
HOW THE FACTIONS CAN DIVIDE US, SO AS WE LOOK AT THE THREATS
FROM OVERSEAS, THEY'RE MUCH MORE PERNICIOUS AND DANGEROUS TO US
BECAUSE THEY CAN MORE READILY PENETRATE OUR SHORES, ESPECIALLY
WITH DISINFORMATION AND PROPAGANDA AND POLITICAL
SUBVERSION.
SO WHAT I'M HOPING FOR STEPHEN IS THAT WE RESTORE OUR
CONFIDENCE IN OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT, IN OUR DEMOCRACY
THAT WE AT LEAST TAKE A MINUTE TO BE THANKFUL THAT WE DO HAVE A
SAY IN HOW WE'RE GOVERNED.
>> Stephen: YOU WRITE DEFENSE BEGINS WITH EXPOSING THE
KREMLIN'S EFFORTS TO SOW DISSENSION WITHIN NATIONS.
DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT?
>> I STILL DO, YES, I DO.
>> Stephen: THE PRESIDENT HAS CALLED THE RUSSIA INTERFERENCE
WITH OUR ELECTIONS AND WITHIN OUR NATION A HOAX.
IF YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT, IS TRUMP UNDERMINING OUR DEFENSE BY
CALLING INTO QUESTION WHETHER RUSSIA IS DOING IT?
>> YEAH, I THINK ANY LEADER WHO DOESN'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE NATURE
OF THE THREAT IS PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS.
WHAT I DESCRIBE IN "BATTLEGROUNDS" IS HOW
PRESIDENT PUTIN'S PLAY BOOK COMBINES DISINFORMATION WITH
DENIAL.
WE DON'T WANT TO HELP THEM WITH THE DENIAL PART, SO WE HAVE TO
PULL THE CURTAIN BACK, LAY IT BARE, AND MAKE SURE AS WELL THAT
WE DON'T TEE THEM UP FOR SUCCESS WITH THE DIVISIONS THAT WE'RE
SEEING IN OUR SOCIETY.
WAT REALLY RUSSIA WANTS TO DO IS DRAG US DOWN, STEPHEN.
THEY WANT TO POLARIZE US AND PIT US AGAINST EACH OTHER AND REDUCE
OUR CONFIDENCE IN WHO WE ARE AND IN OUR DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND
INSTITUTIONS AND PROCESSES.
SO, I MEAN, MY ADVICE TO ANY LEADER WOULD BE LET'S NOT BE OUR
OWN WORST ENEMY.
LET'S NOT MAKE IT EASY.
>> Stephen: SO UNDERMINING OUR FAITH IN OUR DEMOCRACY WOULD BE
DOING THINGS LIKE SAYING THIS WILL BE A RIGGED ELECTION AND IF
I DON'T WIN THE ONLY WAY THAT WILL BE IS IF IT'S RIGGED AND
THAT'S ONLY WAY THEY WON, ARE THOSE YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR A
PRESIDENT SAY?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THOSE ARE THINGS WE SHOULD ALL AVOID SAYING, ABSOLUTELY.
>> Stephen: YOUR SUCCESSOR, ROBERT OBRINE, ONE OF THEM, IN
THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY, SAID THE COVID CRISIS WAS GOING
TO BE THE GREATS NATIONAL SECURITY ETHREAT TRUMP WOULD
FACE AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
>> WELL, I THINK IT IS NOT MAYBE THE GREATEST NATIONAL SECURITY
THREAT.
IT IS THE GREATEST IMMEDIATE THREAT FOR SURE.
AND ALSO, IT HAS RAMIFICATIONS.
IT REVERBERATES ACROSS ALL THESE OTHER COMPUTATIONS I WRITE ABOUT
IN "BATTLEGROUNDS."
BUT I THINK THERE ARE OTHER THREATS WE HAVE TO BE VERY
CONCERNED ABOUT NOW, IN LARGE MEASURE BECAUSE THOSE THREATS
ARE GROWING IN MAGNITUDE, AND IN THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, I'M AN
HISTORIAN, STEPHEN, SO I TRY TO TELL THE HISTORY OF HOW THESE
CHALLENGES DEVELOPED, BUT ALSO I THINK IT'S A MORE DANGEROUS TIME
BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE THAT WE ARE NOW THESE DAYS, I THINK, LEANING
TOWARD DISENGAGEMENT FROM THOSE COMPLEX PROBLEMS.
I THINK WE'RE IN FOR A PERIOD OF PROBABLY OVERDUE AND NECESSARY
INTROSPECTION TO BRING OUR COUNTRY TOGETHER TO EMERGE FROM
THIS CRISIS STRONGER SOCIALLY AND ECONOMICALLY AND
POLITICALLY.
BUT I THINK THAT INTROSPECTION, WE CAN ACCOMPLISH THAT WITHOUT
DISENGAGING FROM THESE CHALLENGES THAT, IF WE ALLOW
THEM TO GROW, IF WE ALLOW THEM TO PENETRATE OUR SHORES, WE WILL
HAVE TO COPE WITH THEM AT A VERY HIGH COST.
>> Stephen: IN 2008 AND 2009, DURING THAT ECONOMIC CRISIS, THE
UNITED STATES HAD ANOTHER PERIOD OF SORT OF INTROSPECTION AND
REASONABLY EXPECTED NAVAL GAZING BECAUSE WE'RE ALL WORRIED ABOUT
OUR OWN WALLETS, I KNEW AT THE TIME A LOT OF TROOPS STATIONED
OVERSEAS FELT LIKE THEY HAD BEEN KIND OF ABANDONED IN THE THE
ATTENTION OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC BECAUSE WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT
OUR ECONOMICS AND FORGETTING THE PEOPLE WE PUT IN HARM'S WAY.
IS THAT HAPPENING AGAIN?
ARE WE FORGETTING ABOUT THE YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE
PUTTING THEMSELVES IN HARM'S WAY FOR OURSELVES?
>> YOU KNOW, STEPHEN, I THINK IT IS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT HEARD A
REALLY DETAILED CONVERSATION ABOUT THE WARS WE'RE IN IN A
LONG TIME, AND I THINK WHAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO
UNDERSTAND, TO SUSTAIN OUR EFFORTS THAT ARE SO CRITICAL TO
OUR SECURITY IS THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, HEY, WHAT IS AT
STAKE?
WHAT IS THE DANGER?
AND THEN THEY ALSO DESERVE TO KNOW WHAT THE STRATEGY IS, WHAT
THE STRATEGY IS THAT WILL ACHIEVE THE OUTCOME WE WANT,
THAT WILL SECURE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND OUR WAY OF LIFE AT A
COST THAT'S ACCEPTABLE.
AND I THINK THAT DISCUSSION HAPPENS ALL TOO INFREQUENTLY
THESE DAYS, AND OUR SMALLER, YOU KNOW, PROFESSIONAL MILITARY IS
ENGAGED IN THESE WARS WITHOUT THE PEOPLE IN WHOSE NAME THEY
FIGHT AND SERVE UNDERSTANDING THESE WARS.
>> Stephen: GENERAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
THE BOOK IS "BATTLEGROUNDS."
IT IS AVAILABLE TOMORROW.
THE MAN IS LIEUTENANT GENERAL H.R. McMASTER.
THANK YOU, SIR.
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH LAURENCE FISHBURNE.
STICK AROUND.
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