>>> IN WASHINGTON, POLITICAL CARTOONIST FOR "THE WASHINGTON
POST," TOM TOLLS, AND ERSHAD
WITH US AS WELL.
TOM, TO YOU FIRST.
OBVIOUSLY, A VERY MOVING CARTOON
YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY. AND OF COURSE THE LINE, BUT THE
PEN WILL ENDURE.
AND YOU WRITE IN SMALL LETTERS,
AND THE LINE HAS BEEN DRAWN.
TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS, WHY IT
HAD TO BE SO DIFFICULT AND SO
PERSONAL FOR YOU.
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S --
IT'S JUST A SHOCK.
I MEAN, THE WORD TERRORISM IS
USED, THE WORD MURDER IS USED
LESS FREQUENTLY TODAY, BUT
THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
I MEAN, IT WAS WORKING
INDIVIDUALS, COLLEAGUES, FRENCH
COLLEAGUES OF MINE, MURDERED,
FOR DOING THEIR JOB.
AND SO IT'S PERSONAL.
IT'S PAINFUL.
IT'S PAINFUL. I MEAN, THE LOSS FOR THEM AND
THEIR FAMILIES.
THEIR FAMILIES. JUST EXCRUCIATING.
JUST EXCRUCIATING. IT MAKES YOU THINK ABOUT
EVERYTHING THAT YOU DO.
I MEAN, KNOW THAT THEY'RE --
NOTHING IS RISK FREE.
IT BRINGS IT SO CLOSE TO HOME.
AND I WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING
BOTH DIRECT AND MEANINGFUL BUT
NOT SIMPLISTIC.
NOT SIMPLISTIC. AND THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A TAKEOFF
OR AN EXTENSION OF THE IDEA THAT
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE
SWORD, BUT IT'S NOT JUST A CASE
OF, OH, IT'S MIGHTIER, THE PEN
ALWAYS WINS.
ALWAYS WINS. I MEAN, WE HAVE DEAD INDIVIDUALS
AS A RESULT OF THIS ACT.
THE RIGHT OF FREE EXPRESSION AND
THE PEN THAT I DREW THERE IS
SHOWN AS, WITH DIGNITY, BUT
LAYING NEXT TO A VERY POWERFUL
WEAPON.
WEAPON. FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION WILL
ENDURE, BECAUSE IT WILL, BUT
IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS, OH, YES,
FREE EXPRESSION ALWAYS WINS
EVERY TIME.
EVERY TIME. >> LET ME ASK ABOUT THE EFFECT,
PERHAPS CHILLING EFFECT, THIS
MAY HAVE ON EXPRESSION.
>> AND WE KNOW THIS.
THAT THERE WERE QUITE A FEW
NEWSPAPERS AND MAGAZINES THAT
REFUSE TO REPRINT, INCLUDING THE
AP, ANY OF THEIR CARTOONS.
>> AS A LAWYER AND SOMEBODY
WHO'S BEEN IN THE OPINION BIZ
FOR 27 YEARS, WE'RE PAID TO SAY
THINGS THAT'S -- THAT ARE
RAUCOUS AND ABRADE THE PUBLIC
SENTIMENT.
SENTIMENT. I'VE GOT GOOD NEWS.
THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE LOVE TO
MAKE CAUSAL CONNECTIONS.
IS THIS AN ISLAMIC MESSAGE.
THE ANSWER IS NO, IT'S NOT.
RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE 1.6 BILLION
MUSLIMS ON THIS PLANET.
IF 10% WERE TO USE THE MIND-SET
CORRECTLY, RABID JIHADISTS,
THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.
THERE ARE LEADERS OF THE MUSLIM
COMMUNITY WHO ARE BASICALLY
SPEAKING AGAINST THIS.
BUT NOTHING HAS SOLIDIFIED
PUBLIC OPINION AND THE NEED FOR
UNFETTERED FREE EXPRESSION -- I
HATE, I SAY, SADLY, THAN THIS
EVENT.
EVENT. IT'S DONE MORE TO BOLSTER FREE
SPEECH.
SPEECH. >> TO YOUR POINT, WE'VE BEEN
WAITING TO QUOGET TO YOU HERE, T
IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF
RELIGION, ESPECIALLY GIVEN A LOT
OF THE DEDUCTIONS PEOPLE ARE
MAKING IN LIGHT OF THE MASSACRE
IN PARIS?
IN PARIS? >> MIKA, I CAN TELL YOU THAT
THERE ARE TWO MAIN REACTIONS,
AND THEY'RE VERY MUCH BASED ON
DIFFERENT LIFE EXPERIENCES.
ONE REACTION IS FROM NONMUSLIMS
WHO SAY, IRSHAD, I THOUGHT THERE
WAS HOPE FOR REFORM IN ISLAM,
CLEARLY THERE ISN'T.
WHAT I SAY TO THEM IS THEN
YOU'RE NOT MAKING AN EFFORT TO
LOOK FOR WHERE THE HOPE IS.
BECAUSE WHEN GOOD MUSLIMS SAY
AND DO GOOD THINGS, WHAT WE
EXPECT MUSLIMS TO DO, THEY OF
COURSE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE
NEWS.
NEWS. IT'S THOSE WHO ENGAGE IN
SENSATIONAL ACTS SUCH AS
BOMBING, BEHEADINGS AND
SHOOTINGS, WHO MAKE NEWS.
AND SO WE WIND UP HAVING A VERY
LOPSIDED PICTURE OF WHAT MUSLIMS
ARE ABOUT.
ARE ABOUT. AND PARTICULARLY A YOUNG
GENERATION OF MUSLIMS, MIKA, I
CAN TELL YOU, YOU KNOW I'VE
RECEIVED DEATH THREATS AND HATE
MAIL IN THE PAST.
THESE DAYS, I CAN HONESTLY
REPORT TO YOU THAT I RECEIVE FAR
MORE LOVE BOMBS FROM YOUNG
MUSLIMS WHO ARE HUNGRY FOR
DEBATE AND DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT
IS GOING ON IN THE NAME OF OUR
FAITH.
FAITH. SO THAT'S ONE REACTION.
AND THE OTHER REACTION IS,
INDEED, FROM MUSLIMS ALL OVER
THE WORLD WHO HAVE, ON SOCIAL
MEDIA, DEFENDED FREE SPEECH,
INCLUDING OFFENSIVE SPEECH, AND
HAVE SAID THESE THUGS, THESE
TERRORISTS, MAKE A MOCKERY OF
OUR FAITH.
OUR FAITH. >> TOM, QUICK QUESTION FOR YOU.
HOW DO YOU DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN
WHAT IS HATE SPEECH IN A CARTOON
AND WHAT IS POLITICAL SATIRE?
THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE
CRITICIZED SOME OF THESE
CARTOONS AS INFLAMMATORY AND
HATE SPEECH.
HATE SPEECH. HOW DO YOU AS A CARTOONIST DRAW
THAT LINE?
THAT LINE? >> WELL, I DRAW THAT LINE EVERY
DAY.
DAY. I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY
TODAY IS NOT THE DAY TO DRAW
THAT LINE.
THAT LINE. THIS WAS -- THESE WERE PEOPLE
WHO WERE MURDERED FOR EXPRESSING
THEIR OPINIONS, AND THAT IS JUST
UNACCEPTABLE ON EVERY LEVEL.
THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME BEFORE
AND AFTER TO TALK ABOUT -- AND
TALK ABOUT WHICH IS PART OF FREE
EXPRESSION WHAT'S ACCEPTABLE,
WHAT'S SMART, AND WE CAN ARGUE
ABOUT THAT ALL DAY LONG.
BUT RIGHT NOW, TODAY, WE DON'T
ARGUE ABOUT THAT.
THIS WAS MURDER FOR FREE
EXPRESSION.
EXPRESSION. AND THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE.
START TO FINISH.
>> WHAT'S NEXT FOR EUROPE?
LIONEL, WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP?
IS THAT WE CONTINUE, ESPECIALLY
IN FRANCE, THIS DEBATE ON HOW
MUCH IMMIGRATION?
MUCH IMMIGRATION? >> THAT'S GOING TO BE PART OF
IT.
IT. THE GOOD NEWS IS THERE WILL BE
AN ABSOLUTE EXPLOSION, BUT
APPRECIATION FOR FREE
EXPRESSION.
EXPRESSION. YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THIS MORE
AND MORE.
AND MORE. YOU'RE ALSO GOING TO SEE THE
ROLE OF THE CARTOONISTS ELEVATED
EVEN GREATLY.
EVEN GREATLY. THROUGH THIS TRAGEDY THERE WILL
BE MUCH, MUCH GOOD THAT WILL BE
INSPIRED BY THIS.
>> IRSHAD, DO YOU AGREE WITH
THAT?
THAT? >> I ABSOLUTELY DO.
I'M ALREADY SEEING EVIDENCE OF
IT WHERE MORE AND MORE YOUNG
MUSLIMS ARE MAKING THE EFFORT TO
EXPRESS OPENLY THEIR LOVE OF
FREE SPEECH.
FREE SPEECH. BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT THEIR OWN
ABILITY TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AS
INDIVIDUALS DEPENDS ON EVERYBODY
ELSE'S ABILITY TO DO THE SAME.
>> IRSHAD MAJI, THANK YOU.
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