Amna: In Manhattan, the
cross-examination continues of E
Jean Carroll.
The magazine columnist has
accused former president Donald
Trump of raping her in a
department store in the mid 90s.
She testified again today after
the judge rejected a request
from trump's attorneys to
declare a mistrial.
The civil trial is possible
-- is being closely watched not
only because of high-profile
defendant but what it could mean
for legal accountability in
cases of sexual violence.
Among those watching is Laura
Beth Nielsen, professor of
sociology at northwestern
university and an attorney and
researcher with the American bar
foundation.
Welcome and thank you for
joining us.
I know you have been watching
the trial.
You saw the detailed testimony
by E. Jean Carroll question by
her own lawyer.
As part of that
cross-examination, they have
been asking why she decided to
sue trump in the first place and
not the former CBS head, let's
moon the, who also previously
sexually assaulted her.
She answered in this way, saying
less moon vested not call me
names.
He did not grind my face into
the mud like Donald Trump did.
Trump's attorneys seem to be in
play she's chasing money,
chasing book sales, chasing
fame.
What do you make of that defense
strategy?
Guest: I think it's very common
defense strategy, to question
the motives of someone making a
sexual assault allegation.
This is an effective way of
bringing up the kind of rape
myths or scripts we all have in
our mind about rape and that we
see in the media over and over
again.
It couldn't have really happened
, if it happened in this case,
why didn't you do something in
this other case?
What in fact, the harms
associated with each sexual
assault someone suffers is
unique and her decision to hold
one person accountable and not
another is her decision.
Amna: There is another line of
questioning getting attention
from one of the defense
attorneys, specific to her
assault.
Last week there was this
exchange in which he asked about
during the assault, you never
screamed for help?
Carol answered you cannot beat
up on me for not screaming.
I'm telling you, he raped me
whether I screamed or not.
In today's cross-examination, he
asked why she never filed a
police report.
She said I was born in 1943.
I'm a member of the silent
generation.
Men -- women like me were taught
to keep our chins up and not
complain.
Women my age were not trained to
call the police.
I would never call the police
about something I'm ashamed of.
I thought it was my fault.
I wonder what you thought about
that line of questioning and how
she handled it?
Guest: Rape is the most
underreported crime that we know
of.
This is agreed on by social
scientists, medical doctors, and
law enforcement.
If you look at the number of
recorded rapes versus the number
you get when you ask women and
people of gender minorities
whether or not they have
suffered a sexual assault, there
is a vast gulf.
It is very common not to report
due to shame, fear of not being
believed, thinking their name is
going to get dragged through the
mud in this way.
While she is certainly correct,
there's more of a taboo for
women of her generation.
It's not that that is solved
now.
These problems still exist.
Rape remains underreported.
I would not want people to go
away thinking that is that
generation we have progressed
mightily.
This is still a problem, the
underreporting of sexual
assault.
Amna: In terms of how these
exchanges are registering with a
jury, is there a normal behavior
someone in a jury hearing these
exchanges could compare her
behavior to?
Guest: Unfortunately, a lot of
what the defense is trying to do
is going to resonate because
these are the myths we have
heard over and over again in our
lifetimes.
It is hard to know and we should
say we are racing this on
reporting from the courtroom.
We are not -- we are not able to
hear the tone and look at the
jurors and see how they are
responding.
I do think it will resonate and
yet, at the same time, there is
a recognition the law is taking
this claim seriously, that
sexual assault is harmful
enough, pervasive enough, that
even this much later than the
allegations are for, we still
want to remedy the situation.
It's good for people to see the
law taking this seriously.
Amna: It is obviously getting a
lot of attention because we are
talking about a former president
on trial for rape.
But more broadly, what is at
stake here when it comes to
limits or a greater ability of
the courts for some kind of
accountability in these cases?
Guest: I think we are seeing a
slow but steady progress on
believing, even when they are
accusing very high-powered
people like a president of the
United States, the president of
a movie studio and so on.
We have seen the fall of marital
rape exemptions, we have seen
rape shield laws all designed to
protect accusers and given the
#metoo movement, lots more
people know someone who has been
a victim, their daughter,
someone.
Some people are going to read
this as a reason not to report
and a reason to stay silent
because it is really hard to
make a claim like this.
Look at what is happening.
But it is also raising up the
idea that the law takes this
seriously and the law is
beginning to appreciate what
happens for sexual violence
survivors.
They don't report right away and
suffer long-term damage.
Amna: Professor of sociology at
northwestern university and
attorney and researcher with the
American bar foundation.
Thank you for joining us.
Guest: Thanks for having me.