>>> WE MENTIONED NEW DEVELOPMENTS ON THE RUSSIA FRONT
TONIGHT. UNDER PRESSURE FROM BOTH
PARTIES, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TOOK ITS FIRST
STEPS TOWARD IMPLEMENTING SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.
CONGRESS PASSED THE SANCTIONS THIS PAST SUMMER.
PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS SUPPOSED TO IMPLEMENT THEM BY OCTOBER 1.
OBVIOUSLY THAT HASN'T HAPPENED. PART OF THE REASON WE ARE
LEARNING TONIGHT MAY BE BECAUSE THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS
ELIMINATED THE OFFICE THAT COORDINATES SANCTIONS.
FOREIGN POLICY IS ON THE BOARD, HAVING BROKE THIS STORY, THE
REPORT SAYS INSTEAD, THE ROLE OF COORDINATING U.S. SANCTIONS
ACROSS THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES NOW
FALLS TO JUST ONE MID-LEVEL OFFICIAL.
IMAGINE THAT INBOX. TODAY NBC NEWS OBTAINED A COPY
OF A LIST THE WHITE HOUSE SENT TO CONGRESS IDENTIFYING POSSIBLE
RUSSIAN ENTITIES THAT MIGHT BE INCLUDED IN THOSE SANCTIONS.
ONCE THEY ARE ENFORCED, BUT IT IS NOT THE FINAL DETERMINATION.
>>> IN THE SENATE, DEMOCRAT BEN CARDIN OF MARYLAND, REPUBLICAN
JOHN McCAIN OF ARIZONA, AMONG THOSE CRITICAL OF TRUMP'S
RELUCTANCE TO COMPLY. THEY SAID IT IS A STEP IN THE
RIGHT DIRECTION HOLDING RUSSIA ACCOUNTABLE FOR ITS ATTACK ON
OUR ELECTION. >>> ON THE INVESTIGATION FRONT
MUCH OF THE FOCUS REMAINS ON SOCIAL MEDIA TO INFLUENCE THE
ELECTION. TWITTER IS NOW BANNING ADS BY
RUSSIA MEDIA OUTLETS RT AND SPUT NICK.
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" SAYS THE DECISION MARKS ONE OF THE MOST
AGGRESSIVE MOVES BY AN AMERICAN COMPANY WHICH U.S. INTELLIGENCE
OFFICIALS HAVE LINKED TO A WIDE RANGING KREMLIN EFFORT COVERT
AND OVERT TO DISRUPT THE 2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
>>> DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL ROD ROSENSTEIN, HOWEVER, AND
INTERESTINGLY, IS DOWN PLAYING THE IMPACT OF THOSE FAKE ADS.
>> I THINK WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND IS THAT THERE IS A
DISTINCTION BETWEEN PEOPLE TRYING TO SWAY AMERICAN
ELECTIONS AND SUCCEEDING IN SWAYING AMERICAN ELECTIONS.
AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE PRETTY SAVVY, AND WHEN THEY DECIDE WHO
TO VOTE FOR, I DON'T THINK THEY'D BE INFLUENCED BY ADS
POSTED BY FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS. PEOPLE ARE MORE THOUGHTFUL ABOUT
THAT IN THE WAY THEY MAKE THEIR DECISIONS.
>> A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL FIND THAT A HIGHLY DEBATABLE
CONCLUSION. FOR MORE I'M JOINED BY MIKE
McFAUL, FORMER U.S. ANN TO RUSSIA DURING OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION AND MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR AND SENIOR FELLOW AT
STANFORD. SUSAN GLASS IS WITH US, VETERAN
CORRESPONDENT CHEECH INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST
FOR POLITICO, FORMERLY CO-BUREAU CHIEF OF THE MOSCOW BUREAU IN
THE WASHINGTON POST. WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.
AMBASSADOR, BEFORE WE GET TO SANCTION, JUST ON WHAT WE JUST
HEARD FROM ROSENSTEIN, AS I SAID, IT'S GOING TO BE HIGHLY
DEBATABLE. PEOPLE MAY SEE THAT AS AN
UNSOPHISTICATED TAKE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT COMPANIES
LIKE RT AND SPUTNIK. THOSE ARE THE OVERT LABELED
COMPANIES. BUT IT WAS THE COVERT STUFF THAT
GOT IN PEOPLE'S HEADS, IT'S ARGUED, THAT MIGHT HAVE SWAYED
SOME OPINIONS. >> WELL, BRIAN, THERE WERE
MULTIPLE METHODS THAT THE RUSSIANS USED TO SWAY VOTERS IN
2016. THE STATEMENT HE MADE, IT'S A
SOCIAL SCIENCE QUESTION TO LOOK AT CAUSALITY.
TO SAY OFFHAND VOTERS ARE SOPHISTICATED, THEY DON'T EVEN
KNOW, A COUPLE OF THINGS. FIRST, WHEN YOU USE ADS ON
TWITTER, YOU DON'T KNOW. YOU DON'T SEE THAT.
>> THAT'S RIGHT. >> THAT'S THE WAY TWITTER WORKS.
THERE'S NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER THERE'S A PAID TWEET OR
SECOND. NOT PAID.
SECONDLY, THERE WAS A WHOLE OTHER SOPHISTICATED ECHO CHAMBER
USING THOSE PLATFORMS AS WELL AS OTHERS WITH BOTS AND REAL LIVE
PEOPLE TO PUSH CERTAIN MESSAGES. AND THIRD, AND I WANT TO KEEP
REMINDING PEOPLE OF THIS ALL THE TIME.
THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED DATA THAT WAS STOLEN BY THE RUSSIANS
THAT WIKILEAKS DUMPED AT VARIOUS TIMES THAT I THINK HAD A
PROFOUND IMPACT ON THE ELECTION, AND THAT'S WHY CANDIDATE TRUMP,
BY THE WAY, KEPT TALKING ABOUT IT.
IF HE DIDN'T THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT TO HIS CAMPAIGN, WHY
DID HE KEEP TALKING ABOUT THAT DATA?
AND IF YOU PUT THAT ALL TOGETHER, THEN WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT WHAT THE RUSSIANS WERE ACTUALLY DOING IN 2016, NOT JUST
ONE TWEET OR ONE BOT. >> AND NOW, AMBASSADOR, ALLOW ME
TO STEER THIS AIRCRAFT BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF SANCTIONS.
>> YOU GOT ME GOING THERE, BRIAN.
>> I KNOW, IT'S MY FAULT. I ASKED FOR IT.
SUSAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
I'LL GET TO YOU IN JUST ONE SECOND.
DID THESE SANCTIONS HAVE TEETH? A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOW BORED BY
THE USE OF THE WORD SANCTIONS. HOW DO THEY NORMALLY WORK IN
NORMAL TIMES? >> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S
GOOD NEWS THAT THEY FINALLY ARE MOVING FORWARD.
AND, BY THE WAY, IT'S JUST THE FIRST STEP IN A LONG PROCESS TO
ACTUALLY PUTTING NEW SANCTIONS IN PLACE.
BUT IT'S BETTER THAN NOT. AND IF THEY ONLY HAVE ONE PERSON
IN THE SANCTIONS OFFICE, I UNDERSTAND WHY THERE'S A DELAY.
YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF MEASURING THE IMPACT OF SANCTIONS, THAT'S
ALSO A TOUGH QUESTION. I THINK MOST ECONOMISTS BELIEVE
THAT IT'S SOME PERCENTAGE. WE DEBATE THAT, YOU KNOW, HERE
AT STANFORD, WHETHER IT'S HALF A PERCENTAGE GDP, OR ANOTHER
PERCENTAGE. BUT I THINK THERE ARE TWO PARTS
THAT PEOPLE FORGET ABOUT WHEN THEY TRY TO MEASURE THAT.
ONE IS ALL THE BUSINESS, ALL THE INVESTMENT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING.
BRIAN, DO YOU KNOW ANYBODY THAT'S LOOKING FOR NEW
INVESTMENT OPPORTUNITIES IN RUSSIA RIGHT NOW?
>> I CAN'T SAY I DO, NO. >> BECAUSE OF THE SITUATION.
I CAN TELL YOU OUT HERE IN THE VALLEY, WHO WANTS TO GO TO
RUSSIA RIGHT NOW WITH ALL THIS UNCERTAINTY?
SO, THAT'S OPPORTUNITIES WE'RE NOT MEASURING, BUT ARE BEING
LOST. AND ON THE OTHER PIECE, JUST
REMEMBER ONE SIMPLE THING. VLADIMIR PUTIN IS TRYING TO LIFT
THE SANCTIONS. HE WOULDN'T BE TRYING TO LIFT
THE SANCTIONS IF HE DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE HAVING AN IMPACT.
>> SUSAN, SAME QUESTION. WHAT WOULD THIS BE LIKE DURING
NORMAL TIMES? >> WELL, THESE ARE NOT NORMAL
TIMES, ALTHOUGH YOU COULD ARGUE THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL AND UNDER
PRESIDENT TRUMP OR PRESIDENT OBAMA BEFORE HIM.
PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS REALLY TURNED TO A MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE
STANCE WHEN IT COMES TO HIS CRITICISM OF THE UNITED STATES.
THIS INTERVENTION IN THE 2016 ELECTION IS STILL SHOCKING TO
US, BUT AT THE SAME TIME IT'S NOT ENTIRELY SURPRISE IT WAS
CONSISTENT WITH HOW PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS BEEN OPERATING IN
OTHER COUNTRIES THAT HE'S SEEKING TO DESTABILIZE AND TO
INFLUENCE. AND SO WHAT I FIND ABOUT THE
SANCTIONS AND ALSO THE MOVE BY TWITTER AND AMERICAN SOCIAL
MEDIA COMPANIES TO SORT OF VERY BELATEDLY COME TO TERMS WITH
THIS INTERVENTION IN THE U.S. ELECTION, IT'S ALREADY BEEN A
FULL YEAR BASICALLY SINCE THE 2016 VOTING.
WE'RE STILL TALKING ABOUT THESE SANCTIONS AS OUR VERY FIRST
CONCRETE RESPONSE AND RETALIATION FOR THAT AND THEY
HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN IMPLEMENTED YET.
YOU'RE ASKING WHAT THE IMPACT OF THE SANCTIONS.
ED ADMINISTRATION RIGHT NOW IS JUST BEGINNING TO TALK ABOUT WHO
WOULD BE ON THE LIST AND CIRCULATING, AS YOU SHOWED US
EARLIER, A PRELIMINARY LIST OF COMPANIES THAT MIGHT BE
TARGETED. SO, THIS IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY
SLOW AND UNCONVINCING RESPONSE I THINK BOTH BY AMERICAN
COMPANIES, TWITTER IS ONLY DOING THIS AFTER BEING FORCED INTO
THIS SITUATION BY A REAL OUTCRY AS THE EXTENT OF RUSSIA'S SOCIAL
MEDIA MANIPULATION BECAME CLEAR. IT'S A VERY BELATED RESPONSE.
WE'RE NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT, BY THE WAY, WHETHER ANYTHING HAS
BEEN DONE TO SURE UP THE INING AT THE -- INTEGRITY OF AMERICA'S
VOTING SYSTEM. MANY PEOPLE I'VE SPOKEN WITH IN