Please welcome Dee Rees.
-♪ ♪ -(cheering and applause)
Thanks so much.
-Oh, my God. -Welcome to the show.
-Thanks so much. -You are an amazing filmmaker.
Uh, you know, it's... Mudbound, the film we just saw now,
which is gonna be coming out on Netflix.
Uh, but a lot of people know your work from Pariah.
-Yeah. -You created a story that really touched
on how your life could have been.
When you look at a film,
are you trying to imbue a piece of yourself within it?
I think, like, part of it happens, you know, deliberately.
And then I think there's the stuff
that slips in accidentally.
So, for me, like, looking back,
I realize that, in my work,
there's always this element of, like, home,
about not being able to go back home.
-Like in Pariah, Alike, -Right.
you know, she ends up going to Berkeley to get away from home.
And then in Bessie, you know, like, Queen Latifah,
like, when she goes back, when she goes home to Chattanooga,
that's when she gets stabbed and that's when she gets hurt.
And in this film, like, both these, like...
these two, kind of, guys who have gone off to war, like,
coming back home was, like, the real battle line.
So I think, like, that kind of fear of home is something
that slips in, and-- I don't know-- I should talk
to a therapist or something. But, like, that's, like...
-that's, like, the thing. -I-I guess, in different ways,
they both have a valid fear of not, uh, coming home.
Uh, Mudbound is a film about Americans who go off to war.
-Mm-hmm. -Two Americans who should be the same.
One is black, one is white. And when they come back,
they experience a very different country,
even though they both fought for the same thing.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, I think the thing
that's interesting... So, like, Jamie and Ronsel--
these are these two soldiers from different families.
And so they've kind of been outside the bubble.
And their whole kind of thing is that they-they've gone over
to fight in World War II. They-they come back home.
There's no ticker tape parade for them.
There's, you know, these kind of muted celebrations.
And, you know, they-they have PTSD
before there's really, like, a name for that.
And so they're just, like, you know, self-medicating.
-They're drinking, and neither family -Right.
really understands them. And they kind of connect
with each other and kind of find this friendship
because of that trauma. So, like, these guys
ordinarily wouldn't talk to each other,
but they're kind of, like, having this thing
because they can... they're the only guy
that, like, understands, like, what-what they've gone through.
-Right. -And so I think that's kind of interesting,
to, like, delve into how, when people are cracked
or when they're broken, that's when, kind of, like,
um, um, empathy can kind of creep in or seep in. Yeah.
Is-is that something you're trying to create
in the film, is-is an empathy?
Because it-it feels like the story
touches on so many different themes.
On one end, I'm feeling for veterans who come back
and aren't treated the way they should be by their government.
On the other hand, I feel for black Americans
who fight for a country that don't treat them equally
as they would every other American.
And then, on the other side,
-you're seeing how women are treated... -Mm-hmm.
...in American society.
Was that intentional on your part?
Yeah, and so I have to shout out, um, Hillary Jordan,
like, the author of the book.
So, like, these multiple points of view
was a conceit of the book.
And then, bringing it to life as a director,
I really wanted to make sure that there's balance there
and nuance, and I absolutely wanted to get to this idea
-of, like, everybody's fighting on their own fronts. -Right.
Like, the two women. So it's Florence and Laura
played by Mary J. Blige and Carey Mulligan.
You know, they're living in a time
where, like, the man is the head of the household,
and they're supposed to obey.
And both women are disobedient.
They're quietly doing what they think is right.
And, like, the two sons, you know,
they're fighting this idea of, like, mental...
of, like, mental trauma.
And then you have these two farmers, um,
played by, like, Rob Morgan and Jason Clarke--
Hap and Henry-- and these guys both love the land,
but they're both connected to it
in really unequal ways, right? And so...
But they both have this sense of being disinherited.
They both feel like, you know, they can take title,
that they're entitled to this place, you know?
And-and one of them literally is,
'cause he holds the deed.
And the other one can't, even though he does the deeds
-that keeps the farm going. -Right.
And, so, everybody is kind of, like, you know, conflicted
and fighting on their own fronts.
And I want you to, like...
You may not, you know, agree with someone,
but you can, like, certainly understand
kind of their worldview, so, yeah.
It's interesting how it feels like
-the women in the film have to do a lot more of that. -Mm-hmm.
There is... there is a deft touch
that they all possess with regards to navigating
the emotions of the men that they have to deal with.
-Mary J. Blige, in the film, is phenomenal. -Mm.
-I mean, the cast is-is amazing. -Mm-hmm.
The film is beautiful, but Mary J. Blige--
I've never seen her like this in a movie.
Like, how did this... how did this come together?
How did you get Mary J. Blige?
And was it easy to get her to say,
"I'm gonna do this with no lashes, no wig, no...
"This is not gonna be me in makeup.
-This is just gonna be as raw as possible."? -Yeah.
So I had to talk her into that part of it, but, uh...
-(laughter) -But it was kind of great.
-So I had done, uh, Bessie before. -Right.
And, um, so I knew her manager, Shakim...
And so, he manages Queen Latifah and Mary,
and so, as were putting the cast together, I'm like,
"Do you think Mary would ever consider doing this?"
You know, and I... It was like... It was like a Hail Mary.
I was like, "I doubt..."
You know, like, she'll say "no," and we'll move on.
And so, she read it and said, "Yes."
And so, it was like, "Oh, my God."
And so, then it was about, you know,
disappearing into the character, and just, like, in a way,
I think it's, like, freeing, because, you know,
she could kind of, like, let go, you know,
of the exterior and be this very interior person.
And she's gorgeous, she's beautiful,
you know, with very little makeup on.
And so, we talked about it, and she tried to sneak in,
like, some eyelashes every now and then,
or tried to, like, sneak in some, like, nails.
And I was like, "No, no, no."
I'm like, "No... no gel tips for Florence."
-But, um... but, um... -(laughter) -I like the idea
that she had, like, contraband that was nails and tips and...
Yes. Yes. I was like, "What is that in the frame?"
Like, "What is that? Is that a... Is that a (bleep)
-French-French manicure?" But no. -(laughter)
Um, but, um, but Mary's amazing,
and she was amazing to work with.
And, like, the thing that I miss is, like, the surprise of it,
because when we first, like, premiered at Sundance,
-nobody knew it was her until the end credits rolled. -Wow.
And everybody was like, "Wait. Who was Mary in the film?"
And then... and now, everybody knows.
They're, like, looking for her.
-Right, right, right. -But at first, it was like
this great, like, magic trick
where they didn't know until, like, the very end, so...
-Yeah. -You've been involved in some phenomenal storytelling.
You've created films that many people have loved,
-and they've been critically acclaimed. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Uh, when you look at the controversy
that has followed the Golden Globes...
-Natalie Portman was presenting an award... -Mm-hmm.
...and, uh, said, "Here are the all-male nominees."
-In the spot, a conversation again. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
As a director who is in Hollywood, who is a woman,
-Mm-hmm. -do you think that there needs to be
a conversation in and around the...
the inclusivity of women as, you know, being seen as filmmakers?
Do you think there's more that can be done?
And how can it be done?
I think there should be a larger conversation
about so many of these awards, like, not being about the craft,
like, not being about the work itself.
I feel like when, you know...
critics can't celebrate what's on screen,
then they want to celebrate the maker,
if they can't celebrate the maker,
then they celebrate, like, the story of.
So to me, if there's just, like, a checklist,
and there's, like, cinematography, performances,
-Right. -editing, sound design,
you know, then it gets really easy,
and to me, regardless of the maker, like, what is excellence?
Like, and I think that the bigger conversation
is, like, people's, I think, unconscious bias
-influences what they see as excellent. -Right.
So to me, like, if you're, like, a famous filmmaker
and you make a mediocre film, it should be ignored.
If you're an unknown filmmaker, you walk in off the street,
you make something excellent, it should be rewarded.
So there's also this kind of inherent kind of, like,
hierarchy built towards a goal, famous name, big name,
we have to, you know, give it respect.
And so for me, the bigger thing's, like,
if it was just about excellence, if it was just about craft,
I think that would help to kind of transcend that,
because then it'd be fine, all five nominees could be women,
'cause you're looking just at the craft, you know?
There's not this deference to, like, body of work,
or there's not this deference to, like, brand, so...
You-you apply that in your world as well,
because on this film, you had many of your department heads,
women, and it wasn't just women,
it was women who are excellent in their craft.
Is it hard to find these women,
or do you think people just don't look hard enough?
No, they're not hard to find, and, like,
that's the whole big point I wanted to make.
Like, for me, hiring women is not tokenism,
it's about hiring the women who are the best
at what they do, you know?
And so if you see a woman on set, like,
you know she's beat out probably 50 other people
to get that job, so she knows what the hell she's doing.
If you see a guy on set, it could be his first day.
-You don't know. But, um... -(laughter)
And, like, he's not gonna tell you.
But for me, it's, like, Rachel Morrison was my cinematographer,
and, like, I had known her work from Fruitvale Station,
and also, like, I lived in L.A. for a while,
and, like, the whole, like, lesbian social world
is, like, small.
And then, like, Tamar-kali, she'd worked on Pariah,
she's the woman on stage just, like, rocking out.
-Right. -And I knew... and she worked on Bessie also,
and worked on this, I've worked with her repeatedly,
and Mako Kamitsuna, my editor, she edited Pariah.
And so I just got women who I knew that were amazing.
Like, this woman named Angie Wells,
who used to do my makeup on press tour for Bessie.
She was doing my makeup one day, and I'm like,
"You know, you should, like, run a department."
And the same thing, there's a woman named Pud Cusack,
who is our sound recorder, our sound mixer on set,
and it was just kind of, like, who's the best person
in New Orleans, and Pud's name came up,
so it was, like, hire Puds.
So for me, it's about, you know, hiring excellent people,
because, you know, giving people a shot...
Yeah, I won't dig that hole. But yeah, it's about excellence.
No, I... look, I understand what you're saying,
and I, uh, it's hard to apply it in a world
where people then go, "Is it tokenism?
Is it not tokenism?" So that at the end of the day,
you know, what I find happens is, uh, if somebody
who is of a group that is not,
um, in a position of power messes up,
the whole group is messed up.
-Yeah. -So if a woman messes up on set, they go,
"Well, that's why you can't have women."
Right, and if it's a man, it's like,
"Well, Dave was an asshole." You know what I mean?
-Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. -And that's essentially it.
Yeah, like, just Dave goes down, like, not all men go down.
Exactly. Before I let you go,
let's talk about the future for Dee Rees.
Are you going to be making blockbusters?
Are you interested? 'Cause I know some directors
just want to make indie films, they want to make beautiful work
that is only in a small environment.
Are we gonna see you making something crazy?
-Do you have those aspirations? -Yeah, man, I want to do sci-fi.
I actually have, um, I had did a part of an anthology series,
Electric Dreams, it's coming out on Amazon soon.
And so, like, I've always wanted to, like, do sci-fi,
and so it's, like, all these, like,
Philip K. Dick adaptations.
And then I have this other kind of sci-fi thing cooking.
And then I have Twitter films.
Like, one is a Joan Didion piece,
The Last Thing He Wanted.
So it's, like, a spy-thriller.
And then, um, this, um, a movie
about the failure to ratify the ERA with Carey Mulligan.
And so I like scale, I like scope,
but the thing I'm addicted to with indie film
is, like, the control, you know?
So it's kind of like that tradeoff
where the more money you take, you know, sometimes, like,
the less say you have, and, like, you don't get your cut.
And with this film, I got, like, final cut,
because it was, like, an indie film,
and I got, like, "festival cut," and so what that means,
if it goes and plays well at the festival,
they'll leave it alone, you know what I mean?
So, like, I'm always trying to find sneaky ways
to get final cut and to, like, cast, so...
I don't know if that answered your question, but I don't know.
I'm gonna make-make all that.
You're an amazing guest. You make amazing films.
Thank you so much for being on the show.
-Thanks for having me. -Mudbound.
It's streaming on Netflix. Dee Rees, everybody.